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Is this un-Christian of me?

I think this guy should get the death penalty, along with this guy, this guy, this guy, and this guy when he's found guilty.

I would rather send those that commit such egregious crimes to the other side and let the Perfect Judge decide their punishment.....

Amen Brad, Amen!

Amen Brad, Amen! The world would only be better if we make them leave it. Plus they wont be soaking up my tax dollars watching cable watching porn and living large in a facility that is better kept than any government housing facility in the inner-cities.

Death only for murder and treason, in my opinion

I fail to comprehend why we let murderers out of jail at all, even after 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

Life imprisonment should be the automatic minimum.

As for being "Christian" or not...

Here's the Church's position on capital punishment:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards the question of whether and in what circumstances the state should impose capital punishment as a matter to be decided solely by the prescribed processes of civil law. We neither promote nor oppose capital punishment."

No...

That's ludicrous. I simply want God to be the arbiter of life and death.

Why is that ludicrous?

Why is that ludicrous?

Death Penalty

Emotionally, I want them to die. I not only want them to die, I want them to suffer. When I read of this happening, I am hurt and angered. How could someone do this?

This is obviously is going to turn into a discussion on the death penalty. I figured I might as well give a brief synopsis as to why I am against the death penalty.

For those of you LDS that want the death penalty because it saves tax dollars, your argument has two major problems. First, the death penalty does not save tax dollars. It costs more to put someone to death then to imprison them for life. Second, even if it costs less, enforcing the death penalty to save money is just the implementation of Cain's great secret. What made Cain Master Mahan was his ability to kill human life for gain. His great secret was the commodification and exchange of human life for wealth. By using the death penalty to save money, you are joining with Cain and his secret order.

The death penalty does not deter crime. Nobody stops and thinks about whether they will get the death penalty or just a life imprisonment before committing such a crime. Nobody kills because they will just get a life imprisonment. Think about it. It doesn't happen. Furthermore, studies have shown that the death penalty does not deter violent crimes. Rather, studies have also shown that the death penalty actually has the opposite effect by increasing violent crime. This will lead to my next point.

The death penalty devalues all human life. I agree with the French revolutionary/philosopher Albert Camus (everyone should read The Rebel). We are angered when murders are committed because we believe that all human beings have a right to live. Murderers go against that right and we want them punished. However, by implementing the death penalty, we are denything that very thing we claimed existed. The death penalty says that some human beings do not have the right to live. By asserting this, we are also making the claim that there is no essential part of being human that grants the right to live. We are making the claim that no human necessarily has the right to live.

Appeals to the Old Testament for the death penalty are problematic for at least two reasons. First, the punishment laws in the OT were not to prescribe what should be done, but what could be done. In other words, the OT just gave the maximum punishment, but gave no minimum punishment. Second, Christ did away with these very notions. He gave us a greater law of love that repeals those very notions.

When all is said and done, the only real reason we have the death penalty is so that some can feel a sense of revenge. That is what it comes down to. They killed and we want them dead to serve our own self gratification. When we are killing to fill are own personal wishes and selfish gratifications, we are commiting the very act we are punishing then for.

By the way, your laughing alo

By the way, your laughing alone

a few sources

The estimated costs for New York’s death penalty, which was reinstated in 1995: $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death, with no executions likely for many years. (The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)

In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%. In comparison to non-death penalty cases, the following findings were revealed:

* The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases.
* The trial costs for death cases were about 16 times greater than for non-death cases ($508,000 for death case; $32,000 for non-death case).
* The appeal costs for death cases were 21 times greater.
* The costs of carrying out (i.e. incarceration and/or execution) a death sentence were about half the costs of carrying out a non-death sentence in a comparable case.
* Trials involving a death sentence averaged 34 days, including jury selection; non-death trials averaged about 9 days.

$ North Carolina spends more per execution than on a non-death penalty murder case
The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (Duke University, May 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty. The study,"The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina" is available on line at www-pps.aas.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/comnc.pdf.

Texas death penalty cases cost more than non-capital cases. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992)

How's that for citing?

Farker...

Please show me links to those sources of the Dallas Mourning News and The Times so I can verify your sources. But thanks for the other one. I just have to say that if the costs are so high it is because of the extensive appeals process that they pursue. Such an appeal process does not exist for those who are sentenced to life in prison. This extensive appeal process exists for the mere fact that the state wishes to avoid condeming to death anyone who is innocent. That contradicts your assumption of criminals wanting to die. If they wanted to die then they would not exaughust all of their appeal processes to try and get out of their plight. You are arguing against yourself.

This extensive appeal process

This extensive appeal process exists for the mere fact that the state wishes to avoid condeming to death anyone who is innocent. That contradicts your assumption of criminals wanting to die. If they wanted to die then they would not exaughust all of their appeal processes to try and get out of their plight. You are arguing against yourself.

No, I'm not arguing against myself. I'm saying the appeals process is a lengthy one, and it isn't necessarily because the convicted wants it that way. They may, but not necessarily. If you look at who is at the head of most appeals and fights against the death penalty, it is usually special rights groups and/or lawyers/firms looking to make a name for themselves. This is obviously not always the case.

The other sources, sorry, I already closed down the link (I had found those pages after extensive searching). But you can probably find them by googling it. I never argued the reason for the high costs, only that it is extremely expensive. So while I have no problem with capital punishment, I just believe that the US has a pretty bad system of getting it done efficiently. Only the worst of the worst are sentenced to die, and never die until after millions of dollars are spent at their expense, only to give them attention and temporary fame. They don't deserve that. If it was, "I hereby sentence you to death," followed by an escort to the gallows, then I'd probably feel differently. But it isn't. A life in prison is worse than a quick and easy death.

Farker, I have done some rese

Farker, I have done some research and have found out that it cost just as much or more to put someone in prison for life because of all the times they appeal for parole and how much it is to support a person in our prisons. So try another argument.

Yes, I'm sure you've done some research.

Farker, I have done some research and have found out that it cost just as much or more to put someone in prison for life because of all the times they appeal for parole and how much it is to support a person in our prisons. So try another argument.

Well coward, that is a nice attempt at invalidating what I said. Do you have anything besides your word to back it up with? I believe I provided a few different sources.

Just from a first glance though, it doesn't seem very logical. You're saying it costs more to put some through parole appeals a few time than going through all the steps necessary for actual execution? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Firing Squad

I haven't lived in Utah for 10 years. Have they done away with the firing squad?

i keep thinking that capital

i keep thinking that capital punishment is wrong, and that people don't have the right to kill, even if it is through legitimate government procedures. Then I read a story about some serial rapist, and in my highly emotional state, I think to myself, "screw my old opinions, I want to see this person die." So I don't believe in capital punishment, except when I get carried away by a specific case emotionally.

I agree

I agree

If we went by the bible's standard.....

In biblical times, capital punishment was doled out much more liberally than the current system, even for acts that aren't even considered crimes in America today.

God is Judge

I agree with the Church's stance on capital punishment: the state should decide whether it should be used or not. I live in Virginia where more people (per capita) are executed by means of capital punishment than any other state. Although I PERSONALLY would vote against any law promoting capital punishment, I support my state's law on capital punishment as the civil law that rightfully governs Virginians like myself. I think God is the arbiter of life and death (being the one who created us in the first place). For this reason, I'm against capital punishment. Life in prison, however, is still a justifiable punishment for someone in my view.

ultimately I agree with you.

ultimately I agree with you. But does God sit in on every jury? Make the decision in every case? Do we not have responsibility to administer the laws of our land?

This is completely correct in every sense.

Nuff said.

Some thoughts

If we were talking about the Old Testament only, then your argument about Christ fulfilling the law would have extreme merit, but even in modern day scripture Christ tells us the exact same things.



First:

Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die (2 Nephi 9:35)

I love the specicifity of this scripture. The murder who deliberately killeth makes it very clear who is worthy of the death penalty. But you could argue that Christ said:

Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God (3 Nephi 12:21)

Ok, fine, Christ quoted the commandment, but didn't specifically mention any of the possible consequences. But then, in 1831, roughly 1800 years after everybody thought that the law was fulfilled, Christ delivered this statement:

And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die. (D&C 42:19)

Now we get to your point where you compare should and could. Nowhere in scripture, or in modern discourses that I have seen for that matter, have you seen "Thou shalt not kill; he that killeth can die," and for good reason too. The definition, according to Webster, of shall reads:

1 archaic a : will have to : MUST b : will be able to : CAN

2 a -- used to express a command or exhortation (you shall go) b -- used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory (it shall be unlawful to carry firearms)

And even in the commentary of the word it acknowledges that shall and will are interchangable, and if you look at the time frame the language comes from, replacing shall with will makes the language even more clear cut.



Albert Camus is wrong. He uses circular logic to say that if one person killing another person is wrong, then it devalues human life by putting the murderer to death because it is taking away his life. What would you expect from somebody who is French?


The fallicy of this particular arguement about the death penalty is that it assumes we will value ALL human life less by taking away the life of the murderer. But the reality of it is, the death penalty is a testament to the value of human life. We hold that the value of the life that you took is so great that there is only one way to pay your debt to society... with your life.

good thoughts....

For those of you LDS that want the death penalty because it saves tax dollars, your argument has two major problems.

I wasn't trying to infer this, and I don't think there are many out there who are in favor of the death penalty just because it saves tax dollars. If this was my mistaken insinuation, it is not how I was intended to be interpreted.

First, the death penalty does not save tax dollars. It costs more to put someone to death then to imprison them for life.

Although I have also heard this before, I am skeptical of its validity. I'm sure there are many factors that go into this, including length of imprisonment. I think this would hold more weight if you would site your source so we can further verify your claims.

The death penalty does not deter crime.

I agree with you here. God has, throughout history, instituted his own death penalty for unrighteousness (Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the city of Ammonihah, etc.) and the argument could be made that unrighteousness is actually increasing rather than decreasing. I don't think its point is to necessarily deter crime, but to rid society of very sick, unrepentant individuals who no longer contribute in any way positive, to society.

The death penalty devalues all human life.

I disagree with you here. I believe that the death penalty shows that we value life more than to allow an individual to repetitiously or egregiously take innocent lives. An unrepentant murderer, especially of several people, or children, no longer deserves the privileges that they intentionally took away from another.

First, the punishment laws in the OT were not to prescribe what should be done, but what could be done. In other words, the OT just gave the maximum punishment, but gave no minimum punishment.

I agree with you here as well. (sorry your emphasis was eliminated when I copied and blockquoted your quote) I don't make an appeal to the bible, especially the Old Testament to justify my current opinions of the death penalty. I only appeal to it to show that the death penalty has been an option, even outlined by God among His chosen people, throughout the course of time.

Second, Christ did away with these very notions. He gave us a greater law of love that repeals those very notions.

I agree with you that Christ's gospel of Love supersedes all other commandments and authority. I still think it is very possible to love and still see it fit to sentence a man to die. From the eternal perspective, we are not ending this man's existence, and I do not believe Capital Punishment is the worst punishment one can inflict on another. We're simply sending him on to his Maker, where He can decide on the fair eternal punishment for him. You must also consider all of Christ's teachings. If a man kills several people in cold blood, or molests, tortures and kills small children, should we simply turn the other cheek and forgive him, until seventy times seven? Or is it better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea?

When all is said and done, the only real reason we have the death penalty is so that some can feel a sense of revenge.

Now, if it was the families of the victims that were imposing the sentence then I would agree with you. But since it is a sentence decided by an unbiased jury picked by both the prosecution and the defense, I have to disagree. I don't think it's all about revenge. I don't believe any one of those jurors gets any sort of gratification out of sentencing someone to die.

We have to remember that these are not men convicted of petty crimes. Being in favor of the death penalty does also not necessarily mean that you are in favor of it in every instance it is used. These are individuals who have committed serious, horrible crimes - in many cases committing the same horrible crime over and over again to innocent people. I don't see why keeping these men locked up in a prison for the rest of their lives, until their dying breath, is any favorable alternative to putting them to death. In either instance, they are life's failures. They do not contribute in any way positive to society, and it is better for them to move on to their next station, where God can be their judge.

well said

Tyler is right. The death penalty is exponentially more expensive in terms of tax money than keeping someone alive for sixty years or so. If you study up, you will find that generally speaking, most death sentences go through a number of courts and appeals before being carried out. It costs a fortune. Further, it does not deter crime. Personally, I would say that most criminals would rather be put to death than spend their life in a, "pound me in the arse," prison.

From a logical point, the only good thing about the death sentence is that it removes a harmful person from society. That is it, that's all it does.

Stop using the Church to justify your positions. The Church made it's stance clear. There aren't blanket policies for anything.

costs?

these look like the costs of a capital punishment case compared to a case where capital punishment isn't an option. does this compare those costs to the costs of a life-term sentence? I think what you have posted here was already obvious.

How much could an execution r

How much could an execution really cost? The cost of a bullet? Maybe two if you miss the first time.....for Wesley Alan Dodd it only took the expense of a rope....which could be reused later. Once they're found guilty just kill them on their way out of the courtroom. End all of this appeals bull.......

just kill em

This whole banter of the cost of tax-dollars spent on the death penalty process comes down to this. I would rather have my tax dollars spent killing those bastards then having them watching porn and getting a free education during there life in prison.

Farker.

"A life in prison is worse than a quick and easy death."

How can you claim this to be true? Have you ever actually been in prison for life? You are making a value judgment without any experience whatsoever.

Site your sources!!!

Yes. Please, if you've done research, then site your source so we can verify your claims!!!

Ummm... Yeah.

That's why we don't use the Bible's standard. Right?

Refresh my memory...

Didn't the law of Moses (including the summary executions of various types of malefactors) stop applying to Christians around... 2000 years ago when Christ taught: "HE THAT IS WITHOUT SIN, LET HIM CAST THE FIRST STONE." Even though the Old Testament is "canonized", Christians still don't live by everything stated therein.

Power to create and kill

"I think God is the arbiter of life and death (being the one who created us in the first place)."

We are given power to create. It is an awesome power that brings us closer to god. He also gave us the power end life. It is a power we must use responsibly. But he did give us that power. Christ founded a society in the Americas that sanctioned the death penalty for crimes. This was the same Christ that said, "he that is with out sin, let him cast the first stone." We have the responsibility and right to create and take life. We just have to do it responsibly and with in the confines of the law.

We do...

We have the right to administer the laws of the land and I fully support my state's law. I only wish we could consider other punishments that don't go against God's helpful suggestion: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"