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The BYUSA election debacle

What a way to finish:

The Daily Universe

Smith’s vice presidential candidate J. Griggs made the decision to withdraw from the final BYUSA elections Friday, automatically disqualifying the team. The BYUSA Elections Committee decided to declare Adam Larson and Chrissie Sant winners of the election.

According to Griggs, Honor Code officials approached him Thursday on an accusation from a student that he had not observed curfew rules. After an Honor Code review, Griggs was placed on probation. Both Smith and Griggs were asked to either resign or be disqualified from the elections, Smith said.

[Griggs:] “I’ve been honest with the Honor Code office, and they feel that my relaxed obedience on this point of the Honor Code is worthy of probation. I accept responsibility for my actions, yet, what troubles me is the self righteous attitude among some students that somehow they’re doing a service by going behind someone’s back instead of confronting them directly.”

What a snotty response from Griggs! He broke the rules and then tried to run for an office whose responsibility it is to help enforce those very rules. Obviously he's real sorry for breaking the honor code and misleading everybody, so sorry that he feels the need to tell everyone how "disappointed" he is in the behavior of the person that reported him.

That's right, he's the victim here, not the con-man. How dare someone go behind his back like that!

I just love how people who get taken down like this find the need to demean those who turn them in. Well of course you'd rather the person come to you instead of the honor code office, Mr. Griggs. Why, if they'd of done it that way you'd be the new vice president.

Of course I would comment on this one

1. It is much too convenient that this "watchdog" decided to turn in the Griggs-Smith duo on the second-to-last day of elections. I am not implying (nor do I think) that Adam and Chrissie had anything to do with turning him in, but unless this is something that happened on Wednesday night shouldnt the person have turned on Griggs a long time ago, say when the incident actually happened?

2.Though I KNOW that it does not make it right (use as many jump off a bridge analogies as you want) can anyone at BYU actually claim to keeping the honor code 100% (relating to keeping the curfew)?

3. (And for those of you who feel like you have never broken the code or know someone who has) Even if you have never personally committed honor code violations wouldnt it count if you had a roommate who had someone over after hours and you didnt have the guts to tell them to leave havent you violated the code as well?

I agree with Griggs. Tell him about this first, there is nothing saying that after he had been told the person couldnt have still told the Honor Code Office.

Personally I don't think curf

Personally I don't think curfew is a huge deal but I'm not trying to climb the top of the byusa food chain either. (I do obey it though, BTW.)

As I read about Griggs this image of a certain AP I once had as a missionary pops into my mind. The guy was just too much. He'd do almost anything to get to climb his way up the mission hierarchy, and it made me sick.

It's probably wrong of me to ascribe precisely these same attributes to Griggs without knowing more about him, but too late now I guess. Hopefully I'm not off base, but if I am, I'm sorry.

Anyway, if we're talking about bending curfew by 5-10 minutes here and there then that's one thing but that's not the impression I got from the disciplinary action taken against him. His violation must have been fairly bad and fairly repeated.

And about turning him in for this at such a "convenient" time, I say more power to them. Use it against him. I'm all for it.

Or maybe I've just got an authority problem ... Or better said, a problem with unrighteous dominion / priest-craftish behavior.

As far as this issue goes, I

As far as this issue goes, I don't think I'm going to place any judgment until I know the real story. The Daily Universe isn't always known for its accuracy, and for all we know, Griggs' statement could have been misconstrued.
Brittney

hypocrisy at BYU

You know, observing curfew here isn't that hard. A violation means he either a)had girls in his apartment past midnight b)was in girls' apartments past midnight or c)did both things, and he probably wouldn't be put on probation for a one time violation. He knew the rules and openly (to at least his/her roommates) disobeyed them. Then someone reports him for breaking the rules. Big surprise. He comments on being reported as if he's the only one in the history of BYU who has been reported for curfew violations. As for spencer's comment about it being underhanded and hypocritical, it is also part of the honor code to make sure others are obeying.

Thinking that you can openly and repeatedly violate the honor code and then represent the student body is pretty hypocritical.

And jen, yes, I can say I kept the honor code 100% with respect to curfew. For two years before I was married, I made sure I was out of the girls apartments and they were out of mine at curfew. It really wasn't that hard.

you're right

If the intention was there to screw him out of the election, that is definitely underhanded. If he were my roommate, I probably wouldn't want him to win the election. I don't want someone who blatantly ignores the rules to lead the BYU student body.

"That's politics," my wife just said.

Out of Necessity

Maybe Griggs had to break the honor code because he was planning to revise it and make curfew optional once he was put into office.

If that is the case, he was leading by example and it would have been hypocritical of him to keep the honor code curfew rule. And, he certainly would have had my vote.

another source

I am not claiming that this is a FACT, but it did come straight from the BYUSA office. The curfew violation was supposedly only for a handful of minutes after curfew and the source was someone that Griggs knew from Freshman year. So I have heard people assuming that the violation may have occurred years ago. Again, I do not know if this is accurate.

I do think that the report was malicious, though I don't think Chrissy or Adam had anything to do with it. It may have just been someone who didn't want Griggs or Smith in. Also, if it is true that the violation occurred during Grigg's freshman year, does that mean that he really did break a rule? I thought that in the handbook for elections it just states that you must maintain the honor code during elections and of course upon winning.

'Relaxed Obedienc'

"Relaxed obedience." I love this quote. It's an LDS version of the typcial political B.S. an election inevitably generates. There is something very Clintonesque about the phrase.

Thank heavens I'm not a BYU student

Having read this thread all I got to say is it is a beautiful thing to not go to the Y. I can't possibly imagine a scenario where ratting out somebody for something as stupid as curfew is a good thing. But then again, that is the whole reason the Y has an Honor Office. It's self-righteous punks like that that made me run far far away from the BYU approved complexes around here.

Anybody who considers it to be their business what I do is (A) a pretentious prick and (B) trying to buy their way into heaven.

Nice

I love it dJake. One of my professors made fun of the situation today, too. The way I see it, all laws are not equal, and i don't think there's any way in hell a curfew violation should keep anyone from becoming some type of limited leader. Oh, and Christ said "Be ye therefore perfect," so maybe we should get rid of BYUSA all together.

Having said that, there are fewer "self-righteous punks" at BYU than you might think. Then again, I'm not running for office, so maybe they just haven't come out of the woodwork yet.

how i love controversies at BYU

I love how this wouldn't be a big deal anywhere BUT at BYU. We always have the most unique controversies i've ever heard. However, this is another low point for BYU.

If it was not a malicious attack, then shame on the honor code office for waiting THIS long to actually disqualify them. If the infraction had been reported before elections, then that should've been enough for them to tell them they couldn't even run in the first place. Yet here we have someone who was apparently really far ahead in the race who just happens to be reported the week of elections. Too much of a coincidence for me. And what's sad is the fact that he could be reported by someone falsely, and the truth being that he never broke the honor code. The Honor Code office will more likely take the word of the accuser instead of the accused.

I have a good friend that violated curfew, and she had been warned many times before she got turned into the office. That wasn't my concern...in fact, she had it coming. What concerns me is that the very person who turned her in was violating it herself, having her own boyfriend come into her room after midnight. He would even sleep over there from time to time. This is the self-righteous hypocrisy that's being discussed.

True, most people at BYU are not self-righteous. But it's the few outwardly self-righteous that give our university a bad taste in the mouth for everyone else!
By the way, my name is Brad.

As Christ said...

He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone. i can bet pretty everyone that's posted in this thread is guilty of violating curfew at least once or twice. nobody's perfect. Nobody. I don't care if you've only violated it by a few minutes because you were trying to finish up a movie, or you just lost all track of time, or if you were doing immoral stuff with your significant other. We are all guilty of it, and for us to get on a fellow BYU student's case for violating it maybe once or twice is highly irresponsible and hypocritical of us. Think about it people.
Brad

something interesting

Here's something interesting that i discovered while perusing the editorial section of today's Daily Universe. In the top left editorial that discusses the need to release the vote tallies and let the public know, there was one paragraph that stood out to me:

"Campaigns are responsible for monitoring each other and reporting infractions or violations of election rules. Infractions are submitted to the elections committee that investigates the reports to make sure the election process is fair. According to the committee, all five candidate pairs had infractions."

Shouldn't all five candidate pairs be disqualified from the election? Why should it be just Griggs that gets singled out?

information to all

Well, if we're allowed to know what infraction Griggs is charged with, why shouldn't we be allowed to know about them all? After all, if the person who wins the election had an infraction, don't we have the right, as voters, to know exactly what it was (hopefully before we elect them)?

Also, what i want to know is why the Honor Code, in light of the importance of elections, make more of an investigation into the incident under question? Why don't they talk to neighbors, roomates, or other possible witnesses to find out exactly how well Griggs lived the Honor Code?

What the Honor Code office reflects is the ideal of "guilty before proven innocent." Makes me sick.

I always find it interesting

I always find it interesting to find so many arguments against the honor code. I'm not advocating the election fiasco (spelling?). However isn't it funny that we all gave our word to abide by the honor code but when it comes time to face the penalties we start complaining about it. I swear there's a Gospel lesson in this. :)

Hypocrisy not only among students

The Honor Code office seems to pick and choose who they discipline in these matters. I went to BYU 4 years and never once had roommates that obeyed curfew rules. Usually these problems were resolved between roomates and did not involve the Honor Code office. However one year the Honor Code office was called in to help with a particularly difficult roommate that was doing a lot worse than just violating curfew rules in our apartment. My other roommates and I were told ...'Its your word against hers so there is nothing we can do about it." How convenient for the Honor Code Office to actually take action against someone only because they are in the spotlight on campus yet ignore more serious problems.

regardless...

regardless of Grigg's guilt, it's still a very underhanded thing to do. What about ethics? Isn't that something they are trying to teach you guys at BYU? Win at all costs surely isn't something the University is applying to their sports teams; do they encourage it with there other students?

The Honor Code is about teaching people there is a proper way to act. This just shows another great example of the hypocrisy of BYU. "Oh my gosh he broke the Honor Code! Shame on him! Now lets just wait until he has something to lose and then we'll tell on him."

And Mason,

And about turning him in for this at such a "convenient" time, I say more power to them. Use it against him. I'm all for it.

I'm surprised you'd say something like that. It doesn't reflect a very moral or ethical attitude. I thought you were better than that.

You're right

I have jumped to judgment too quickly.

Hopefully my comments have now shown that my judgment is based a number of assumptions, and should only apply if those assumptions are true.

Tyler? What do you think?

you missed my meaning

I wasn't talking about it being okay to disobey the honor code. I'm saying it's wrong to manipulate the honor code to bring someone down. It's all a matter of intentions. If someone was just doing the right thing because they felt it was their obligation, that's one thing. If they are doing it because they want someone to lose an election, and they wouldn't have reported it otherwise, then that is wrong.

I was on their campaign...

The Daily Universe story is accurate. The reporter double-checked the quotes with Griggs.

That's politics doesn't mean that that's a good thing

  1. The BYUSA president doesn't lead the student body- Have you ever seen France Nielsen because I sure haven't. Nobody talks about how great a guy he is or anything. The purpose of BYUSA is to put on activities. The focus of the election should be determining who is able to fulfill the office best.
  2. That's what politics is today, but that's the sort of thing that makes me cynical
  3. What's the point of a campaign if all that matters is underhanded crud?

I cant wait to try to confirm

I cant wait to try to confirm this one

I hate the way the administra

I hate the way the administration keeps everything so secret. We don't need to know the details of their infractions, but I also agree that if infractions are made how can one be judged as worse than the other?

Hypocrisy

We are all guilty of it, and for us to get on a fellow BYU student's case for violating it maybe once or twice is highly irresponsible and hypocritical of us.

I don't think it's hypocritical to fault someone for claiming to be something they're not.

In my case, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Honor Code, and I'm also not claiming that I should be the next student body president of BYU (and thereby implicitly claiming to be Mr. Honor Code.)

And that's what I'm trying to get at with my criticism of Griggs. I suppose I view the people who are running for the BYUSA presidency as self-righteous in a way, so I'm not very forgiving when it comes out that one of them violated the honor code bad enough to warrant probation.

So I guess I just don't see it as hypocritical to fault someone for smugly claiming to be something they're not.

I guess not.

I guess not.

Really though, I don't see anything unethical about waiting to use it on him at a time like this. Maybe I need an education in ethics?

But also, it's very likely that, like me, the person who turned him in isn't the type of person who turns people in for petty honor code violations. But when someone begins campaigning to be part of the new student body presidency he / she is implicitly making a claim that they're staunch upholders / defenders of the honor code, and are setting themselves up as such.

If the honor code says not to wear green on tuesdays then you shouldn't wear green on tuesdays and try to run for BYUSA vice-president. That's all I'm getting at.

On second though, maybe it is a little low to hold something like that in reserve and then spring it on someone, but it's very likely that that isn't exactly what occurred, although it was very convenient.

France and officers

I am pretty sure that BYUSA has been in charge of or helped with all of the Q&A's, dances, devotionals etc. I see France at a lot of the activities that I attend. Maybe you just don't go to them. I also know that he sits in on a lot of committees about decisions that are made that affect the entire studnet body. We just might not hear about them.

France Nielsen

He was at the city council meeting where they passed the booting ordinance.

Spencer is right

Is the honor code implemented so that we all may learn how to bring each other done when it is convenient for us? The odds of Griggs staying out past curfew during the actual week of elections (or even the few weeks leading up to) seem pretty slim to me. I have heard that the campaigning schedule is a pretty rigourous and exhausting endeavor, and I highly doubt that he had time to sit around in girls apartments and break rules. (these are of course all assumptions because I know nothing about the exact situation that J. was in)

If it was from Freshman year, like whitlin has mentioned they heard, I don't think it holds any ground. That is like saying that if a graduating senior drank a beer their freshman year and the honor code office found out, after 4 years of schooling would they be unable to graduate?

France Who?

I read the name France Nielsen yesterday for the first time. This proves that I really have no idea what's going on and that I couldn't care less about BYUSA. I read the Daily Universe all the time, and I never read anything about decisions that BYUSA has made or how BYUSA is impacting my life.

I recognize that BYUSA puts on campus activities, but that looks more like management than leadership. I guess you need a leader to organize meetings and decide which activities to plan, but that's pretty low -level leadership if you ask me. It's like calling the activities co-chairs in my ward "leadership."

I understand that BYUSA presidents are on committees as student representatives, which would make them representatives, not leaders. Am I right, or am I just ignorant about BYUSA, because that is very likely the case. I'd just like to know what kind of important decisions have been left to France and how those decisions have affected my life.

We also have a right to know

We also have a right to know the voting totals. What does the administration have to gain by keeping this secret? I don't understand.