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Suicide and Depression in Utah

This article details a growing problem in Utah: teen suicide. Utah's suicide rate is substantially above the national average. I think there are some unique factors that exist in Utah culture that could potentially contribute to suicidal tendencies and the depression that usually causes them.

Studies show that 90% of young people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness.
According to the Utah Youth Suicide Study, only 3% of Utah suicide victims were using psychotropic medications when they died, and only 2% were active in public mental health treatment.

The fact that LDS people get depressed, just like those from every other walk of life, is not new or groundbreaking. But how we perceive and deal with depression is definitely worth discussing.

As the article says, “Utahn's in general remain squeamish about openly discussing the problem [suicide and depression] and its complex psychological causes. I don't believe that Utahn's are the only people who have difficulty discussing depression, but what are the specific reasons that pertain to our culture?

There are probably several. I think one is the belief that, since “wickedness never was happiness, righteousness never was sadness. Most are reasonable enough to admit that it's impossible to be happy all the time, but the number of people who will admit the possibility that a righteous person can be in perpetual despair (which is frequently accompanied by perpetual guilt) is probably substantially fewer. It's much more natural for Mormons to attribute depression to personal unworthiness.

Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff mentions another barrier that prevents those suffering from getting appropriate help: “We have this All is well in Zion kind of thing going on here, he says. “We'd rather not talk about it at all or maybe go talk to the bishop about it. If there really is a mental health issue you need help. It doesn't work to talk to the youth leaders or ecclesiastic leaders.

This reflects a common Mormon perception: that your bishop is your all-purpose counselor and therapist. No matter what your problem, concern, or challenge may be, this five-word response is sometimes the most advice you can hope for: “go talk to the bishop. While he may be able to put members with mental or emotional health problems in contact with appropriate professionals, I think it's important to keep in mind that most bishops are not formally trained in psychology, so they may or may not possess skills in identifying potential health concerns. In fact, in worse-case scenarios, the bishop may mistake the sufferer's severe depression and low self-esteem as evidence of some serious, undisclosed sin. The unjustified attribution of these feelings to personal sin is likely to make the problem much worse.

So, what's the deal with Utahn's and depression? Why are more kids killing themselves here than in many other states? How should this problem be dealt with?

church culture isn't the whole story

That is an interesting article. I don't really have any problem with your main points. I think that whatever stands in the way of people getting help needs to be dealt with, whether it is cultural, religious-cultural or whatever. People that need help should not feel that they are alone or that there is a stigma attached to depression.

I am not averse to criticizing Mormon culture. We are a strange bunch sometimes and for the most part I think we recognize that. If you look at the statistics quoted in the article though:

Utah actually has the lowest suicide rate amongst the Mountain States. The suicide rate amongst the more rugged states has baffled researchers for a long time. Because of this, I think that looking to church culture for an answer will only get you so far. The argument could be made that the high church membership in Utah might be the thing keeping the state's rate lower than its neighbors. In fact, high religiosity amongst Mormon youth has been shown to contribute to lower suicide rates than their peers.

Here are a few more articles that make this point:

Of course Church culture

Of course Church culture isn't the only reason for high suicide rates in Utah. But I think Utah/Church culture could stand to be more helpful and supportive.

Anybody in the Church who has dealt with depression know that it's not widely understood. Rather than reacting in a supportive, understanding way, most people illegitimize the problem, blame it on unworthiness, or just expect you to snap out of it.

A few things worth noting

My props to the Deseret News for a statistically balanced (for the most part), even-handed article that didn't indulge in blame-gaming or special interest pandering; they discussed only the problem and very limited speculation as to what might be causing it.

One fact, and a non-trivial one at that:
"63 percent had contact with the criminal justice system, and half of those had referrals for substance use, abuse or possession." Utah tends to have less of a societal support system for criminals than other states; one is likely to find MUCH less acceptance here and in the other Rocky Mountain States than in a place like, say, Los Angeles.

Also odd, I thought, was that winter is mentioned as having a lower suicide rate than the spring, and that rural populations are more likely to attempt suicide than urban ones. In an urban population, usually the spring/winter statistic is flipped. Winter typically leads to an increase of incidences of seasonal affective disorder, something I'm sure many of you have heard of and is essentially seasonal depression.

I'd also add that country-wide, states with lower minority populations have higher suicide rates but also lower crime rates. Different cultures will tend to promote (perhaps that's a bad word choice, but the best I can do right now) different self-destructive behaviors.

I'm not one to groundlessly theorize, but it's interesting that Utah-- as well as many of the other Rocky Mountain States-- differ in suicide not only in rate, but in season and population group as well.

More artilces on LDS/Utah suicide

On Monday NPR's Diane Rehm show had a guest host interview Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OREGON) who has recently published a book concerning the depression his son Garrett suffered. Garret, who spent a year at UVSC, eventually took his own life about 2 and half years ago. Here is the link for an audio stream of Monday's show.

Sen. Smith, who is LDS, has written a book called Remembering Garrett: One Family's Battle with a Child's Depression.

My old pal Shawn Mansell wrote an article for The College Times about UVSC's struggles with college suicide. At the time 6 students had killed themselves in a matter of months.

In my opinion young Mormon people do face tremendous preasure and it doesn't surprsie me that a religion that clearly makes so many happy could also make people sad. Let's face it, the Church requires so much more than most any other affliation ever would. Those requirements make Mormon kids different than their peers, most can handle that added stress...but clearly some can't.

On a more personal note

I had a friend of a friend kill himself recently. He was from Delta, a small town where everyone knows everyone and where most boys are expected to serve a mission when 19. This typical young man had had sex when he was 15 multiple times. He drank and he did drugs. A year later he changed his life, gave up all those things and started preparing for a mission.

After a lengthy process he was told by his bishop that despite his past sins he should be able to serve. But At that time the first presidency announced that they were "raising the bar" for missionary standards. Now I no longer consider myslef a Mormon, but even I thought this was a good idea–the kids that are out there should really believe and be committed to the church, and I know that on my mission those that had stayed "pure" were better representivies of the church (not 100 percent, but more often than not).

Unfortunately, this policy prevented this particular young man from be considered worthy to serve, despite his completing of the repentance process. His bishop and stake president made appeals to Salt Lake but they were refused. This young man, who had come to depend on his bishop and the concept of redemption was of course crushed. In his suicide letter he spoke of church members and friends treating him differently because he couldn't serve a mission.

He was supremely depressed and after two attempts he took his own life. Is his church reponsible for his death? I don't think so. But I would say that his CHURCH EXPERIENCE was a huge factor in his death.

I don't think the church should reduce standards so that more kids can feel accepted and have greater self-esteem. The church clearly believes that living those standards are what makes people ultimately happy.

But I do think that the lay clergy and those that advise and work with young people should have better training and poilcy when it comes to dealing with depression. A first step toward the church taking better care of its flock it is to admit that there indeed exists a problem. Those are some smart fellers up there in Salt Lake...I think they can read the writing on the wall. My hope is they have the courage to make some changes.

I have some ideas if any one is interested.

Thank you Steez

Teenagers have a hard enough time, add the pressures of "striving for perfection" and you could have some serious problems.

I appreciate PastoMan's story of someone who managed to overcome the supreme disappointment of not being able to go on a mission, and is now doing quite well.

But that kind of response is exactly what I have a problem with. It seems whenever I have a complaint about the church someone chimes in with a happy little story (no offfense PastoMan) that basically negates the issue. When I watch conference I hear a lot of annecdotal evidence and not a lot of practical problem solving. Is that because the first step would be to admit that a problem exists? Perhaps.

Now I am no longer a member of the church, I just couldn't handle the contradictions, but I still consider myself "ethnically Mormon" and I still have a lot of friends and loved ones that are happy I feel I have a vested interest in the future of the church. I think some serious issues; like race, gender, depression, and class are going to need to be addressed instead of ignored (or worse yet given patronizing attention to).

And I don't think that change has to come from the top down. I think a lot of these issues can be addressed at the ward level. God gave us that lump between our shoulders for a reason.

You're right, Vegor

I think that Steez was just picking an anecdote from the other side of the spectrum that yours came from.
And I think a lot of the problem with discussions like these (and really, any societal issue) is that people are prone to base their decisions on anecdotes. We don't connect on any sort of emotional level with numbers; but you obviously were connected with your friend as Steez was with his, with different results in each case, and the outcome incurs a bias in those who witness it.
Which isn't to say that things aren't any more-- or any less-- of a problem than you say (see my post above), it's just that we're all prone to let what we witness influence us more than what we read.

What if

What if an alternative to a typical proselyting mission was a reality? Imagine if young people, who didn’t qualify because of worthiness issues, were encouraged to participate in service missions.

Think of a program that sent young LDS members to developing countries to build churches or participate in humanitarian work. Have them serve two years, learn a language (and some valuable skills), and they could come back with all those fun mission stories too.

They could feel good that they got to go on a mission and the church could keep the bar high for their proselyting program. And developing countries could use the help.

A follow-up article

I just came across another article that addresses some of the problems we've discussed in this thread:

Some say LDS culture is a factor in suicides

The end of this thread

From Steez909's quote:

Doug Gray, a University of Utah child psychiatrist, said culture does play a big role in Utah's suicide rate but couldn't say it is exclusively attributable to religion.
Rocky Mountain states have a 30 percent higher rate than the rest of the country, he noted. Westerners' independent nature and the availability of guns have something to do with that, he said.
A Brigham Young University study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology in 2002 found that 60 percent of suicides in Utah for 15- to 34-year-olds were committed by male members of the LDS Church.
Nevertheless, the risk of suicide in that age group was
lower among active Latter-day Saints than among less active members, nonmembers and American males in general, according to the report.
The BYU researchers concluded that even though Utah is predominantly LDS, there is no evidence to suggest demands and pressures on church members contribute to the state's overall high suicide rate.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Shakespeare

I'm sure Utah's less active

I'm sure Utah's less active and nonmembers feelings of self-worth have nothing to do with the dominant social force in the state.

I have been wildly confused by this whole discussion because of statements like this. Mental illness is postulated to be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's a physical malady. I don't think any amount of compassion, understanding, or reduced levels of social pressures are going to cause their brains to start producing healthy levels of serotonin again and thereby reduce the suicide rate in Utah.

So, short of subsidizing Prozac with tithing monies in Utah, how could members of the LDS Church become "part of the solution"?

I don't think it's

I don't think it's productive to try to establish a cause and effect relationship between the LDS Church and depression. If anyone claims that the LDS Church and its standards cause depression, I think that's a grossly uninformed and unqualified statement.

However, I think it's worth noting that, to those with natural tendencies toward depression and/or anxiety, the intense pressures to "do good," "keep the commandments," "be worthy," etc., can actually be oppressive and harmful. For instance, there is a rare type of OCD called Scrupulosity, where the sufferer obsesses over religious piety. The obsession with doing things just right and maintaining God's good opinion is consuming, taking all the joy out of religious involvement. The phenomenon is more documented in the Catholic Church, but I've had some conversations with Utah Valley psychiatrists that suggest that Scrupulosity is a common disorder here. This isn't the Church's fault; the OCD disorder is just manifested through religious devotion in Utah more frequently than it is elsewhere, because by and large, Utahns are more religious than the average person. If these same people weren't religious, the disorder would probably be manifested in other ways (e.g. obsessive hand-washing).

So what I'm saying is that the Church does not necessarily cause depression or anxiety, but due to the nature of these disorders, the LDS experience can contribute to their seriousness. For every suicide we hear of within the Church, there are probably dozens more that deal with secretly depression on a day-to-day basis. As an organization that is so involved in the lives of its members, I believe the Church has a responsibility to directly address mental illness issues. In my opinion, the solution involves greater education, more formal training of leaders, and promoting an atmosphere of understanding and support for those afflicted with mental illness.

As I've mentioned previously, the Church has already started taking steps in this direction. But I imagine that it will be a while before mental illness is more universally understood and correctly treated among members of the Church.

mormons, depression, and helping out a friend

Apparently Mason decided that I should no longer have a voice on Provopulse and had me banned. I'll respect his decision to control thought and not seek out a new pseudonym. While I may have been crass at times, it was a reaction to what I am faced with constantly here in Happy Valley. I am constantly approached by friends who can no longer handle the ignorant, false, and un-Christlike views of the Gospel held and propagated by Mason and his ilk. Friend after friend after friend are leaving the church. They are some of the most charitable and Christlike people I know. They can't handle the war-mongering, hate, racism, pride, and utmost ignorance thrown at them. They are tired of being shut-down and berated every time they try to push for equality, tolerance, love, peace, and freedom. It's the ignorance of people like Mason who wield their supposed *doctrines* as creedal weapons to beat down others. Joseph Smith would be utterly disgusted by these antics.

It's a sad day when war and money beat out peace and equality.

All my love,

The Narrator.


Who are you asking? Neither of your questions reflect any claim I made. You created a strawman and knocked it down, it's irrelevant to anything in my post.

Same deal

I have a friend who went through almost the exact same process ie: sinned before mission, repented fully, was preparing for mission, "bar" was raised, he was told he couldn't go. The difference is that he did not commit suicide, and is now preparing for marriage in the temple.

While the story shared by vegor is quite sad, I just wanted to share my experience to even things out.

I do agree though, that church leaders could receive more training on how to handle these issues. I just don't think depression is necessarily caused by church, whether church membership is caused by depression is a topic for another day. ;)


PastoMan was the one who provided the other side of the story (which I appreciate). Steez, I think, feels much like I do that the church needs to stop paying lip service and really do something about this problem.
I haven't read Sen. Smith's book, but I know that in the interview on NPR he did not address the fact that Utah's suicide rate is so high. I think it is the 800 pound gorilla that no one wants to acknowledge. I think that the church has to address this issue. And stories about how some people turn out OK, no matter how valid, tend to mask the issue.

And what is that issue exactly? For me it is the high moral standards that the church requires of its members. As I said before, the church should not change their standards. But I think they need to be a little more cognizant of the fallout when people, especially young people, don't meet those standards. As uncle ben told peter "With great power comes great responsibilty." Well I say with great expectations comes the great responsibilty of dealing with those that might fall short. I think if you really listen to Hinckley when he talks about fellowship and inclusion he is preaching these things. But who has the courage to do them?

Does the church have a good answer for those who find themselves gay and mormon? How about single parents? How about those worthy folks that are not blessed with monetary rewards while others live in abundance? Should black mormons have to deal with the stigma that past leaders have placed on them ("We are responsible for our own sins, and not for Adam's transgressions. But you guys are responsible for Cain's transgressions"). Do they have answers for kids who counted on the atonement and yet were denied the privledge of serving a mission? The church is right to expect everything out of its members (that is made pretty darn clear in the temple) but it needs to remember that for every 90 and 9 there is 1 (and probably a whole lot more) that didn't make it.

I don't want to be the x-mormon guy that just rails on the church's shortcomings. I have hope that the church can turn these "problems" into opportunities to be more like Christ. But if the church expects so much from its members perhaps it is time the members expect more from their church.

this shouldn't just be for

this shouldn't just be for potential *trouble* missionaries. the church should restructure its entire mission program to match the paradigm missionary that all the church leaders love to point to - ammon. ammon didn't go out to preach and convert others to christ like his brothers. he went out to serve them and show them the love of christ. his act of service turned into the greatest conversion to christ's love in mormon history.

project mayhem

Not a bad idea

They have stay-at-home missions of sorts for people with physical handicaps or other limitations that would prevent them from serving away from home, and temple missions that are similar to this.
I know the church used to have a good building and humanitarian mission that worked remarkably well, particularly in the south pacific and, most recently, in Africa. Perhaps it's time to bring it back.

If you talk to those within

If you talk to those within the Church who deal with severe depression and anxiety, they'll frequently point to the social and moral pressures experienced in the Church as elements contributing to their condition.

I'm not saying that the Church shouldn't demand a lot from its members. But unfortunately, while pressure to conform to these standards is not harmful to most members, the pressure can also overwhelm and contribute to the condition of those with mental illness. The solution, in my opinion, is not for the Church to lower its standards, but rather to help treat and accomodate those who deal with depression. This will require better training and resources, as well as a willingness to openly address this topic in forums such as General Conference and Sacrament meetings.

I don't think it's appropriate to say "there isn't a problem," when many of those who deal with depression will tell you that there is. The fact is, depression and other mental illnesses are just elephants in the homes of many Latter-day Saints, which topic they either refuse to or don't know how to discuss. A little prompting on the part of LDS leadership is all it would take to get these discussions going, which would be a good start.

Ideally, peoples who have a gospel perspective and the support of the Church should have a lower suicide rate than those without such resources and blessings. I think that is a goal worth working toward.

Just a thought

" Nevertheless, the risk of suicide in that age group was
lower among active Latter-day Saints than among less active members, nonmembers and American males in general, according to the report."

Its nice that we only concern ourselves with active members of the LDS church when it comes to suicide in Utah. I'm sure Utah's less active and nonmembers feelings of self-worth have nothing to do with the dominant social force in the state. I'll say this there a direct connection between the LDS church and the suicide rate in Utah? No. But shouldn't the church be concerned that so many of their neighbors, friends, and even members of their flock are taking their lives at a record pace. No one is placing blame...I know I have been very careful not to in this thread...but I would hope that the members of the LDS Church would be part of the sollution instead of dismissing the problem.

Seretonin and mental health

Meph-- I've respected you and your opinions for a long time on this board, and I hate to break our long history of agreement on a variety of issues, but there exists a good deal of conflicting literature regarding the roles of cause and effect in brain neurotransmitter levels and environmental effects. A neuroscientist will give a very differing opinion than a psychologist or advocate of cognitive behavioral therapy.

In any case, social conditions can serve to effect positive or negative changes in suicide rates.

Not so black and white

I wonder how many suicide notes mention serotonin levels?

And if mental illness was completely curable by chemicals, I wonder why so many mediacated folks still end up killing themselves?

Again...dismssing the fact that so many Utahans, members and nonmembers alike, choose to end their lives is the issue here. We should be looking for ultimate causations here (and clearly The LDS Church is NOT an ultimate causation).

But we should also be courageous enough to acknowledge that there is something wrong in Zion. The LDS Church is what a lot of folks in Utah fall back on...they are the saftery net in this state. Without LDS Social Services people in need in Utah would be in big trouble.

And with so many people relying on this organization, and with so many lay persons often being put in the position of social workers (Bishops, advisors, teachers, etc.) You have to admit that people can and do fall through the cracks. I think the church needs to acknowledge this deficiency and have a plan to address it.

Should the church be the defacto social services provider for Utah? No. The state should be doing this job...but good luck trying to get this legislature to actually take care of it's people.

Somebody needs to step up and address this issue. As for this former Mormon, I have much more faith in the LDS Church than the "Cowboy Caucus" we call a state legislature.

Fair enough

I agree with you, it is possible. I'm aware of quite a deal of effort on the part of the LDS Church though, especially through leadership training, on this regards though.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Shakespeare

Silly rabbit, Trix is just for kids

It only takes a glance at your posts to figure out how all your dissapointment with "un-Christlike" Happy Valley Mormons is just a projection of your own rebellions.

You might say Joseph Smith would be sickened by our "war-mongering, hate, racism, pride, and utmost ignorance". I'll address each as someone who didn't grow up in horrible, intolerant Happy Valley:

1)war-mongering: congratulations, you chose one of the topics where there is the least consensus in happy valley and generalized it to include everyone.

2)hate: I have to admit that I've run into some minor hostility due to ignorance ever now and then. Obviously, that is a trait inherent of Happy Valley and it never happens outside. Yea, everybody knows that in Happy Valley there is much more hate than in, let's say, Atlanta or New York.

3)racism: this one rofl's my waffles. I am a member of a minority, and I've never seen such an accomodating society as Happy Valley. Is it the priesthood thing? That was dismissed by Pdt. Kimball long ago. Is it the minute man thingy? I would contrast that small group with the xenophile spirit of the people in this valley, who either have served/have kids serving missions all over the world. There are few places where white people are so outreaching to minorities (especially Hispanic and Polynesian). But again, I'm just imagining things, Narrator's got "teh truth"

4)pride: the biggest manifestation of pride in Happy Valley is freedom of speech militantism.

5)utmost ignorance: please edumacate us.

Personally, I don't think Joseph Smith would have been so busy protesting and "valiantly" risking his neck for such ephimeral and self-centered causes as "freedom of speech", so your self-exulting accusations really rub off.

And to say good bye to a dear Provopulser whose contributions will remain in the annals of this blog:

chomsky would be too smart for you and i had sex with your mom.

Good bye, narrator/tyler durden, we'll miss your mature contributions.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Shakespeare

I don't think that Vegor was

I don't think that Vegor was saying that depression is caused by church membership. Actually, he was very careful to point out that he was not saying that.

However, there are people who are naturally prone to anxiety or depression, for whom the LDS experience is sometimes difficult to bear. Because of general unawareness among the membership, and lack of formal training among the leadership, those in the Church with depression frequently don't get the support and help they need.

I should mention, though, that in the last couple years there has seemingly been more attention given to mental illness in publications like the Ensign. It's a step, but it's not enough. I'm waiting for a conference talk and formal training for bishops.

You hit the nail on the

You hit the nail on the head, Vegor.

I also think that the problem is much deeper than leaders not directly addressing depression. There seems to be deeply-held perceptions in Mormon belief that discount the possibility of a depression problem that is not linked to unworthiness. For instance, yesterday I read the following statement in an article about forgiveness in the April 2006 Ensign:

"We can all obtain proof of this remission of sins: we will be filled with joy, will have peace of conscience, and will be filled with the love of God (see Mosiah 4:3, 12). Our sins will cause us no more pain (see Mosiah 27:29), and we will begin to bear fruit."

Intense (but usually unjustified) guilt typically accompanies depression. The sufferer may be keeping every last commandment with exactness, but will not enjoy the feelings described above. What are they to conclude, except that they are still considered unworthy in the sight of God? This only worsens their condition. And what are the depressed to conclude from the following scripture, except that they must be unrighteous?

"And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God." (Mosiah 2:14; emphasis added)

In my experience, most Mormons make the logical jump to conclude that the perpetually unhappy must, by scriptural and prophetic definition, be in a state of unrighteousness. The depressed frequently claim an inability to feel the Spirit and God's love; in others' minds, this confirms their initial suspicion of unworthiness. Too many LDS can't get it into their heads that any exceptions could possibly exist to the supposed "righteousness = true happiness" law.

Understandably, the scriptures aren't going to make express considerations for the depressed. Mental illness is a phenomenon that hasn't received substantial attention in society until recent decades. But accomodating the depressed should certainly be a priority for current Church leadership. The extreme pressure to comform to Church standards can be overwhelming to those with mental illness.

I also second everything Vegor said about helping members gay members, black members, single parent members, as well as those who have repented of their sins but are still denied the opportunity to serve a mission. These are issues that can be addressed on the local level; we don't need to wait for the prophet's command in order to be compassionate and understanding to these people.

Wasn't trying to negate

I wasn't trying to negate your issue, but I did think your story was anectodatal, and potentially harmful in presenting someone unfamiliar with the issue the incorrect impression that suicide is a common result of not being able to go on a mission. Therefore I presented an equally anectdotal story (that's also true btw) as counterbalance.

In all honesty, I do believe there's room for improvement in the training and policies of the church (an alternative to a full-time mission is a pretty good idea as you mention below), but I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to get the impression that depression and suicide from being denied a mission is more common in the church than just moving on with life.

Vegor I think you understand

Vegor I think you understand the issue even less than I do (as pointed out by RC). I was just going by the information that others had posted here. Steez909 wrote in the original post that 90% of young people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness, but only 3% were on medication for it, and 2% were otherwise being treated for it. So I don't know where you get the idea that "so many medicated folks" still commit suicide.

I wonder how many suicide notes mention serotonin levels?

Don't be ridiculous.

But we should also be courageous enough to acknowledge that there is something wrong in Zion.

The very first comment of this discussion links to a report that shows Utah has the lowest suicide rate in the intermountain west. I bet the people of Montana, Wyoming, and Nevada hope that whatever is wrong with Zion in regards to suicide soon spreads to their states too.

Its nice that we only

Its nice that we only concern ourselves with active members of the LDS church when it comes to suicide in Utah.


I give a counterargument against the predominance of suicide risk due to church pressure...and I get accused of only caring about active LDS members.

I think that statement is a little forced.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Shakespeare

Well, I agree with this last

Well, I agree with this last post more than with the previous. I don't think we just "don't concern" with non-active members, as it was implied in the previous post (that kinda upset me a bit, because it was more of an assignment of blame than anything else). But I agree, there are things that could be done to help those with increasing suicidal tendencies.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Shakespeare