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Support the troops and get them out?

Old topic, new findings. Are we failing in Iraq? What have we come to when a majority of soldiers over there disagree with the President? What is your definition of success? What is your definition of failure? You all know my views on the war, so maybe I'll keep quiet while you hash it out... maybe.

Are we failing in Iraq?

Are we failing in Iraq?

Yes. Violence has increased over time. The divisions are widening. Iraqis in Baghdad and around that area have lived in a war zone for nearly 3 years, their suffering is not success. We are facing diverse threats that range from Al-Qaeda terrorists to Sadr's militias. These threats are not diminishing over time. We have fanned the flames of hatred driving terrorism with widespread human rights abuses and a steady stream of images easily used as terrorist propaganda. There is no apparent military solution to the current problem in Iraq.

What have we come to when a majority of soldiers over there disagree with the President?

Realization. My friend who fought in Fallujah came back with some very difficult experiences. He's still a proud marine but his view on the war had definitely changed. It changed because he was there. The Bush Doctrine works great from the viewpoint ideologues that wrote it and the pundits that defend it but the reality on the ground is very different and more difficult.

What is your definition of success?

At least point I'd say success would be an Iraq without daily attacks and a stablizing government that reduces the likelihood of a civil war. My definition for success used to be much higher but I've had to rethink what's possible. I don't think there is a chance for greater success within the next 5-10 years.

What is your definition of failure?

The tendency towards civil war. Daily attacks. Thousands dead each month. Failing infrastructure. Overcrowded hospitals. Starving children. Thousands imprisoned without charge. The existence of powerful militias enforcing unfair laws. Unfortunately I could go on.

This years has been a sad one for Iraq. The year before was a sad one. I don't see many trends that can give us hope for the future. The war was justified on dubious grounds and such a war cannot hold public support forever. This Iraq war is a tragedy that will haunt Iraqis for at least another generation. I can only hope that there will some remarkable breakthroughs soon, otherwise we are just moving towards more bloodshed.

conceding defeat

i'm ready to admit it
i think the war in iraq was a big mistake

we should have just nuked those little £$%^&£$&%--then we should have used the survivors as slave labor to assist us in our collection of ALL the oil.

give it a rest curtis and nabber, none of us care what a self proclaimed "radical" and a blatent-communist-crack-addict have to say about anything...ESPECIALLY United States' foreign/domestic/national policy.

give it a rest curtis and

give it a rest curtis and nabber, none of us care what a self proclaimed "radical" and a blatent-communist-crack-addict have to say about anything...ESPECIALLY United States' foreign/domestic/national policy.

*yawn* I've heard this chickenhawk mating call before, I'm not impressed. Keep talking tough, it's real easy to do when you don't live in a war zone.

tehee

yeah...and it's easy for you (nabber) to criticize the war because you never had to live [as a kurd or a shiite] under saddam hussein
*yawn*
LAME

You want to avoid civil war?

You want to avoid civil war? Do you really think at this point that pulling our troops out is going to instantly make everyone over there agree with eachother? Our presence there is the only thing that is avoiding civil war (if you're not calling it that already).

Yea, Bush is a big dumb idiot, but remember that 80% of people supported going in there in the first place, and nearly all of congress, both democrats and republicans. It's easy to throw stones now, but we're stuck there until we clean up the mess we made. Pulling out is about the dumbest thing we could do right now and would go down in history as the biggest mistake we ever made.

We pulled out of Somolia because things got bad, and look where they're at - still in a civil war 10 years later. Look at the bay of pigs - a huge f***ing failure because we pulled out too early.

Whether it was right or wrong to begin with, chances are you agreed with it the day we were shown the evidence. Now we've gone over there and our only choice is to stay there as long as it takes to leave the country better than we found it.

Less american soldiers died in Iraq ever than died in drunk driving accidents last year. Nearly the same amount have died as were murdered in detroit. Let's go clean up THAT war zone.

we're stuck there until we

we're stuck there until we clean up the mess we made.

Probably the most intelligent thing ever said on ProvoPulse. Seriously.

Look at the bay of pigs - a huge f***ing failure because we pulled out too early.

What? It was a huge failure to start with. That operation was ludicrous from the beginning.

Whether it was right or wrong to begin with, chances are you agreed with it the day we were shown the evidence.

Yes, but that was back when we all believed that the evidence was objective and war was a last option, something Bush was doing only because Iraq was an imminent threat. Later we learned that the Bush Administration repeatedly ignored all the facts and requested the kind of evidence that would support their case. The war was decided before the evidence was provided.

Less american soldiers died in Iraq ever than died in drunk driving accidents last year. Nearly the same amount have died as were murdered in detroit. Let's go clean up THAT war zone.

Okay, but being a soldier and being an irreponsible drunk are slightly different. I'm agreed with you and the Detroit problem.

Hey you are good at what you do...

You know... It can be frustrating when you feel like your viewpoints are being attacked, But at least come back with an intelligent argument.

Sometimes i wonder why the conservative community i am a part of gets such a bad wrap, why we are described as ignorant, or why people think we blindly follow who ever is in charge.

You Kopite are the reason, But hey keep it up... Keep perpetuating that stereotype... you're good at what you do right.

You don't like it? Go start your own Blog

give it a rest curtis and

give it a rest curtis and nabber, none of us care what a self proclaimed "radical" and a blatent-communist-crack-addict have to say about anything...ESPECIALLY United States' foreign/domestic/national policy.

I see. Anyone who thinks the American political system (and this particular war we've instigated with created reasons) is in terrible condition is now a blatant-communist-crack-addict.

I don't know why I ever thought conservatives were above the whole name-calling things.

Here's a thought

How 'bout people who have never been to Iraq just not comment on the war there. I think the information is being spun so badly by both sides that the notion that we're getting "truth" from anybody is laughable. And that goes for the pro-war folks and the anti-war folks. Further polarizing the issue isn't going to help, even if it is only on a Provo current events forum.

Kopite, Do you know what

Kopite,
Do you know what spirit you serve when you speak of using nuclear weapons on a nation? I wouldn't make a big deal about this except for the fact that I've actually heard conservative radio talk show hosts with large listening audiences urge the exact same action. I would really like to see men in our country of the likes of Ammon who set out to preach the gospel to his enemies instead of trying to destroy them out of the land as many of the Nephites were desirous to do.

Clean up our mess

I understand what you are saying Sam, but I think real thought should go into the idea of pulling out immediately. We are still the source of much of the problems over there. We are flying something like 150 sorties a month and each time we fly we are bombing someone. Most of the air war is not published in the media since the media is not on the ground in Iraq where bombs are dropping, we just hear about it occasionally like when the 9 women and children were killed etc. I don't think that anyone would have made the arguement that the Soviets shouldn't pull out of Afganistan since they need to clean up their mess, or that the Japanese shouldn't pull out of Manchuria since they need to clean up their mess first. In each case the sooner the better for the occupying power to get out. I believe the same for our situation right now. Maybe I'm wrong but if there was a civil war in our country I think I'd rather have us fight it out than to have a foreign nation come in and tell us what to do.

Gallup poll shows US citizens want soldiers out

And, it looks like most americans are thinking along similar lines.

*rolls eyes* Yup, nothing

*rolls eyes*
Yup, nothing matters because Saddam's gone. Kopite has been Hannitized. If you really want a discussion about this, respond to one of the many things I posted orignally. If not, keep up the chicken hawk rhetoric. I've heard it before and I'm not worried about yet another echo in the pop conservative echo chamber.

Whether it was right or

Whether it was right or wrong to begin with, chances are you agreed with it the day we were shown the evidence.

Me? I wasn't convinced by the "evidence", it doesn't take too much concentration to realize that war was SOLD to the American people. I know that both republicans and democrats agreed to the war, do you really think it's rare for both of those groups to be wrong together? I think they've proven they can be wrong together for as long as I've followed politics.

The political environment and American fears brought us to occupy Iraq NOT any threat from Saddam Hussein. He was never a threat to the most powerful military in the history of the world.

Now we've gone over there and our only choice is to stay there as long as it takes to leave the country better than we found it.

Perhaps, but the solution isn't a military solution. There is no good military solution in Iraq, the only solution is to hope that the guerilla war will subside through political coalition building and serious improvements in Iraqi security forces. These are difficult tasks that are made more difficult through the problems of occupation. A strange thing happened when Iraqis saw the conditions inside American prisons, witnessed abuses in many cities, and learned of the extra-juridical killings/detentions by Iraqi security forces. This strange thing is that Iraqis began doubting us at our word and began doubting our intentions. We have to prove ourselves to them after 3 years of escalating violence. We have to prove ourselves to them after Abu Ghraib. We have to prove ourselves to them despite very poor security in their capital city. This isn't easy.

Less american soldiers died in Iraq ever than died in drunk driving accidents last year.

*ahem* less american numerically but that's a poor abuse of statistics. Take the number of drivers on American (about 200 million) and the number of drunk driving fatalities (about 17 thousand), what percent is that? US military deaths last year were about 846. There were about 105,000 to 110,000 US troops in Iraq last year (deployments fluxuate to allow service members to rotate), that's about 1 percent. That's a little more dangerous than drunk driving accidents. About 6,000 US troops went home injured last year. That's a substantial amount of young men and women who's entire lives might be affected by serious injuries suffered in Iraq. I don't understand the argument that would suggest these young men and women face less risk than US drivers. It seems to discount their bravery if we suggest that it's just a dangerous to drive down the road.

Nearly the same amount have died as were murdered in detroit. Let's go clean up THAT war zone.

How many Iraqi citizens were killed last year? Let's not pretend their suffering is somehow equivalent to Detroit's citizens. That's a false analogy, a false analogy that really undercuts the experience of people who must live in a war zone.

This didn't happen in Detroit yesterday:

Iraq saw one of its bloodiest days for weeks as 80 people were killed on Sunday in bomb explosions and mortar attacks. Forty of the deaths occurred in Baghdad’s Sadr City – the slum bastion of radical Shia leader Moqtada Sadr when two car bombs ripped through one market and a third blast, probably also a car bomb, struck another. Mortar bombs were also fired into the district.

“People were torn to pieces,” a witness said at the scene.

Earlier during the day, 10 people were killed in a series of mortar blasts and roadside bombings. Altogether, from body counts during the day at least 80 people were killed.

This is exactly what those

This is exactly what those in power would want us to do. Remain ignorant of the issue and pipe down. This is what democracy and freedom of speech is all about RC. When we lay down and take it meekly is when those privileges die. Those in the government are our servants and we pay their salaries. We're the boss. If they serve us wrong, we need to speak up. I don't need to go to Iraq to know that what we are doing over there in general is a bad thing.

ammon

yeah, ok, here's what ammon would do:
he'd see exactly what's going on domestically and abroad then he'd cut off ted kennedy and hillary clinton's arms; use tactical nuclear weapons on iraq, iran, france, israel, everywhere else in the middle east, most of western europe, several new england states, and the west coast; and then he'd pass laws making it mandatory that every household has a gun.
after this, he'd meet me at my slave-holding palacial estate, and we'd go out drilling for oil together.

el MAD dog

sounds to me like YOU'RE the one who has a problem with it

go start your own blog

in a somewhat related matter...

the conservative community gets a bad wrap NOT because of anonymous nutcase online comments by eccentric [and ultimately right] geniuses like myself, but because the media loves to take shots at people who have morals, ethics, family values, and who don't MURDER babies by the millions.

and curtis, don't reply to this comment, i don't care what you think of sean hannity, rush limbaugh, michael savage, certain politicians, haliburton, enron, the NRA, winston churchill, jesus, ted nugent, oil, tax cuts, big cars, etc.

don't matter

i bet germany and japan would both be better off now if we hadn't hung around after wwii also...eh curtis?

in a related matter, more americans would vote for ted kennedy than for jesus if they squared off in an election. who cares what "most americans" think? the thinking in this country should be left to karl rove and lynne cheney. (and them alone, otherwise, mental cases like you will take control and "force people not to sin")

-how's ole joe stalin btw? still got a statue of him in your basement?

**jabs eyes out**

"Yup, nothing matters because Saddam's gone."
I never said that. I never implied that. YOU thought that up all on your own.
-Very Pitiful-
"Kopite has been Hannitized."
Indeed, after my afternoon abortion clinic picketing, I pray to the White-Republican-Lord Jesus while counting (and re-counting) my millions of dollars.
-Ha!-

you want to talk about chicken hawk rhetoric? your last supposed "real argument" cited no facts, gave only criticism, present no possible viable alternative solutions, and was unashamedly biased towards a liberal viewpoint.

judas priest, YOU are PATHETIC.

"i don't care what you think

"i don't care what you think of sean hannity, rush limbaugh, michael savage, certain politicians, haliburton, enron, the NRA, winston churchill, jesus, ted nugent, oil, tax cuts, big cars, etc."

the end.

project mayhem

Kopite, "and curtis, don't

Kopite,
"and curtis, don't reply to this comment, i don't care what you think of sean hannity, rush limbaugh, michael savage, certain politicians, haliburton, enron, the NRA, winston churchill, jesus, ted nugent, oil, tax cuts, big cars, etc."

Why would I want to reply to such obvious asininity? I think that you will have a hard time obtaining any replies to your comments in the future since most sensible people don't dignify the type of mindless word-drool you spout with a reply.

I think I must have the

I think I must have the wrong edition of the Book of Mormon.

I bet Vietnam would be

I bet Vietnam would be better off now if we had hung around after... eh kopite?

Nice "force people not to sin" comment. I love that. It's like, since you can't come up with a legitimate argument, instead you're left to sensationalize what curtis said and try and discredit him by misinterpreting his ideas.

Classic political mud-slinging. Ever thought of running for office?

lol

"...SENSIBLE PEOPLE DON'T DIGNIFY THE TYPE OF MINDLESS WORD-DROOL YOU SPOUT WITH A REPLY."

'spose that leaves YOU and THE NARROTOR out then (thanks for the reply curtis)

ho hum

who's to say vietnam WOULDN'T BE better off? i think they could have used having carlos hathcock and the United States Marine Corps around for a bit longer. it certainly would have put off the killing fields in cambodia (at least for some time), and traded a corrupt western puppet style government in cochin for the even more ruthless and unsuccessful communist government that came to replace it after a blood bath.

my analogy (staying in germany and japan) was to be a stinging point to back the "'we must stay the course'-to avoid civil war" camp. you see kole, curtis appeared to be categorically rejecting the idea that sticking around to rebuild in iraq (or any place) was the wrong thing, whereas i believe that there is a time and a place for helping a nation, iraq being a prime example of such a place (as were germany and japan). so the point in my post was in fact an attempt to question curtis' platform--being it unsound in my opinion--which is entirely fair in proper debate. furthermore, i didn't sensationalize anything curtis said, i quoted him word-for-word and left it in his self-declared "radical" context.

kole, you're an idiot. i will try to dumb-down some posts for you in the future so you can have a say too.
also, your mother was delicious, i ate her with fava beans and a nice chianti ffth ffth ffth.

zoppity bobbing

zoppity bobbing prodictolidity bong bong flib flab flibberty ditterty. jabstackery dixonationeralicious brap brahm brugger dinger dang dag dop. flub flip flaxeranderous slishing slosh sappy substant tosh. yaxterinding gabby dirby dudder weggle quinding vallerpashious.

i think i've pretty much summed up all your arguments kopite.

project mayhem

kole, you're an idiot. i

kole, you're an idiot. i will try to dumb-down some posts for you in the future so you can have a say too.
also, your mother was delicious, i ate her with fava beans and a nice chianti ffth ffth ffth.

Oh, okay. I didn't realize you were sixteen. How about after school we make some prank phone calls and toilet paper our teacher's house?

ha!

that's twice

if only...

you haven't even got the brains or balls for that
keep dreamin'

"This world has no place for the gunless, oilless, moneyless, moralless, homosexual, baby killers that the liberals are. not to mention the environment, which, with lots of effort, we will someday defeat." --ronald walker churchill

A funny?

Is that a funny? I'm not sure, can you explain kopite? Perhaps it takes Hannitized brains and Hannitized balls to get it.